#198 - Why Transparency in Fashion and Fashion Activism are Keys to a Fashion Revolution with Orsola de Castro from Fashion Revolution

Orsola de Castro  0:00  

his book came out in COVID. I actually finished writing it the week before Milan went into lockdown. And I was terrified when I saw you know, when I reworked on the final edits, which was sort of the beginning of May, I thought, oh my god, now everything will have changed and the book will be irrelevant. But it had the opposite effect. You know, when when I wrote the book, my publisher thought that it was going to be much more niche than what it turned out to be actually sold way more than I thought that it ever would. Because people were more ready, you know, with this conversation.

Cory Ames  0:36  

Hey, y'all, it's Cory here with the social entrepreneurship and innovation podcasts back again with our series on the impact of fashion with our partners at Donna. Today we are talking about transparency in the fashion industry. And to do so I'm joined by Ursula de Castro, the founder and creative director of Fashion Revolution. Fashion Revolution was founded in the wake of the Rana Plaza disaster in 2013. And it's now become the world's largest fashion activism movement, mobilizing citizens, industry and policymakers through research, education, and advocacy work. They're a global movement of people who make the fashion industry work in orsola, is an internationally recognized leader in sustainable fashion. And her career started as a designer with the pioneering upcycling label from somewhere which she launched in 1997. As mentioned, she founded Fashion Revolution in 2013 with Carrie stoners, and recently or slow published the book, loved clothes last, how the joy of rewiring and repairing your clothes can be a revolutionary act. And we talked about or slows book, we talk about why fashion matters today. And of course, we talk about the absolute critical importance of transparency, complete radical transparency in the fashion industry. But before we dive into this conversation with orsola, I'd like to ask that you sign up for our Better World weekly newsletter. This is a weekly newsletter that I write, curate and publish myself, send out to our list of folks from all sectors all over the world. Now near 3300 change makers and innovators go to grow ensemble.com backslash newsletter, to join in on our discussion of all that it takes to leave the world a better place than we found. That's grow ensemble.com backslash newsletter. Alright, y'all without further ado, here is Isla de Castro, from Fashion Revolution.

Orsola de Castro 2:48  

So my name is also Castro and I am the co founder and global creative director of an organization called Fashion Revolution, which is probably the biggest or one of the biggest fashion activism movements in the world, we have a presence in over 90 countries and you know, work with some really brilliant teams all over the world. I am also an author, I recently published my first book, which is called loved clothes last, which was published by Penguin life and translated into Italian, and now into French. But I guess the reason for my being in this place is because originally, I was a designer, I had a small brand, which I started in 1997 and upcycling brand, which led me to become the co founder and CO curator of this statica, which was the sustainable fashion area at London Fashion Week, you know, a really epic pioneering gathering space for designers working differently way back in 2006.

Cory Ames  3:53  

Well, excellent, there's there's so much in there that I'm excited for us to get to today, but first orsola With all your your experience in really unique perspective. I'd love to start by by first understanding. Why do you believe that it's so important for us to direct direct attention to the fashion industry, to our clothes, to fashion in general in today's context?

Orsola de Castro 4:19  

Oh, very multifaceted question. A long time to the well, first of all, we know we all know that we are in the middle of a very transition period that you know that there is an urgency to act that we are facing a climate crisis but also a social crisis, a crisis with each other, a real crisis to the structure that we've built. And, you know, we need to question why we built it the way that we built it. This is a process that has started in several other industries. You know, we just look back at food and how this awareness of ingredients has already been really much discussed by customers by citizens. You know, wanting to have a better understanding and a better health. We know that the fashion industry is incredibly impactful. And I'm not the one to give you the statistics because statistics oscillate. And therefore, I might be saying something which was true a year ago, but already out of date now, or something that was ameliorated and it's better now. So it really, let's not talk numbers, but let's talk common sense. We all know how many clothes are produced, we all know how fast we chuck them after we've barely worn them. I mean, you know, this is a cultural issue that is very, very well documented, you know, you just need to switch your iPad and watch an influencer and walk in front of an h&m, Zara, or, you know, press, boohoo on on your computer. And it affects just about 100% of the population, we all wear clothes. So it's not just our choices, that are incredibly important. It's our behavior that matters hugely when it comes to the clothes that we own, the ones we've checked, and the ones that we intend to buy. The truth is that, in a nutshell, when you remember the Friday for futures, you know, the first kids strikes for climate, you know, a couple of years ago, pre COVID. So many kids went vegan, to help the planet to do their thing. You know, veganism is a tough choice. It's all about denying yourself. And of course, you get to enjoy it, because you know, you're doing good, when these kids will realize that the way that they dress has as much of an impact on the planet, I think that they will also realize that it's an easier step to make, it can be a creative step to make, wearing your clothes differently, buying differently, interpreting them differently, really showing what you mean by the clothes that you wear. So it's important that we all take part because the impact will be huge.

Cory Ames  7:00  

I certainly agree with you and maybe wrapped up in what you just shared, there is a lot of the impetus for why it was important to publish your book I loved closed last this year in 2021. But I'm wondering if you could expound on that as to why did you feel like this, this moment was important for you to publish that book. Like why now as opposed to a few years ago? You know, what, what was special about this moment, so important for that book to be written?

Orsola de Castro 7:27  

Well, you know, I've had four children and each everyone pretty much chose me and chose the moment in which they wanted to be born. And it's definitely the same with the book to say that I calculatingly decided that I was going to write a book. I mean, it's so not the story. The story, the real story is that you know, writing for me is a huge passion, but I am also you know, pretty dyslexic dyspraxia, you know, whatever you want to call it, I can hardly count. So although I know I'm very good at speaking, I didn't know that I could be just as persuasive as writing this is something that I desperately wanted, but I would never have dead actually, the story is that my agent contacted me on Instagram. And to be honest, I never checked my Instagram DMS I did that day. She wrote to me saying you know, I'd like to commission somebody to write a book on how to mend and me being me because I'm always a little bit too honest I wrote but I'm really bad at mending Plus, there's some brilliant mending book around and I mentioned you know my colleagues that have been doing wonderful wonderful books of mending Catarina Radha bow and you know Kate securities, but then I just put in an after thought I said you know, maybe I can't do UAE how to mend but I do think that I could do you a why to mend and that's love clothes last so love to at last is very much about you know what you can do but first of all, where's the impetus to do it? And the impetus to do it comes from knowledge understanding what this industry is what we've lost what we've gained and acting as a consequence

Cory Ames  8:58  

in that you do share much of this this vision in the book Love close last. I think one thing that stuck out to me very particularly was your take around the the stigma of fashion that that's that has changed over the generations. And now one thing that was quite interesting to me was was your call to not necessarily beret fast fashion that you know as kind of the complete symbol of evil it there's something in there that we need, that we still need globally. I'm wondering if you could expound on that point as to what you think might be some misconception there in what our relationship should be to the fast fashion industry and what things might be we be overlooking for for where the industry should go.

Orsola de Castro 9:41  

I mean, again, if we look at it from a historical context, fast fashion is born because luxury is too elitist, but it never bothered to create something affordable for people who couldn't by design, even when they move their production to China. You know, they didn't go there thinking Oh how wonderful we can now actually treat was Because really well as they were potentially treating them in Italy, or France, where the clothes were made, provide knowledge and dignity, and actually really have a beautifully made product that will be affordable, that never happened. Exploitation of people nature and for profit was always in their head. So fast fashion really is born out of, you know, how do we make this available. And then of course, it drugged us all, you know, it is based on addiction, and on quantity versus quality. But this is a whole industry that is at fault. Everybody is in a way responsible for their own shame. So of course, we know that fast fashion produces insane amount of quantities in factories that are hardly paying the garment workers a living wage. But the luxury sector doesn't tell us whether it is or isn't paying a living wage, the fashion transparency index that Fashion Revolution publishes, which is about what brands disclose doesn't give us any clue that the main luxury brands are actually treating their workers with all the dignity that luxury should afford them. And equally, when it comes to the toxicity of the materials. I mean, there are some luxury groups that are genuinely really, really investing in alternatives. But I mean, up until the day before, yesterday, they were using precious reptiles, and they were commodifying our resources just as much as any other element of the fashion industry. So we need to be careful. The truth is that really, in my opinion, pretty much 95% of what we see on the high street, if you analyze it is unsustainable fashion. So I've switched the way that I speak. So I talk about fashion. And by fashion. I mean, for instance, the emerging designers that we showcase during Fashion open studio Fashion Revolution week, you know, our cohort 1000s of young creators or small businesses that really are operating fashion, and then unsustainable fashion, which is pretty much what we've been buying recently, despite the efforts because of the green washes. But that's the state of affairs on our high streets

Cory Ames  12:18  

are so I'd be curious if if you could perhaps define for us what sustainable fashion looks like from the view of Fashion Revolution, just because this is something that has not been defined so clearly. And it can be quite susceptible to manipulation. And you know, as you mentioned there greenwashing of this fashion and as well, these designers and brands, perhaps that y'all are showcasing, what what's the defining sustainable fashion for you?

Orsola de Castro 12:44  

Well, I am the opposite of a one definition one thing one thought woman, because I work in the fashion industry, which is all about individualism and differences and it ought to be even more about those differences and you know, including them. So what define sustainable fashion in London is extremely different, different toward define sustainable fashion anywhere else in the world. You know, you have too many facets, which is why, let's go back to that stigma. You know, how can you just call lump a whole universe and multiverse of artisanal techniques upcycling community, small big, you know, sustainable caught, what innovative technology, how can you lumber all of that into sustainable fashion. When in the rest of the fashion you have 75 Different Seasons pre full left for even you have evening work slouch wear. So nothing defines sustainable fashion except for the intent of being transparent nature positive, doing good instead of doing harm. I mean, you know, I guess in Fashion Revolution, our theory of change is a good definition of what a sustainable industry would look like. And that is a fashion industry that conserves and restores the environment, and that values, people over profits and growth. But then within that description, all of the myriads of Fashion Designers and businesses that are arising of defining their own sustainability in their chosen area, and undoubtedly they will start with an area and then keep increasing, but there are many things that make a brand sustainable. If we are going to talk about the mainstream, then we can be a hell of a lot more specific. And then you know, the talk of impact nature positive and above all, ensuring that your entire supply chain is paid a living wage that makes a sustainable fashion brand.

Cory Ames  14:47  

And you mentioned there just a moment earlier the the fashion transparency index, that Fashion Revolution, produces this one this year in 2021 marks the sixth edition I believe and There's an exercise of y'all reviewing the world's largest fashion brands and retailers in ranking them as to what information they're disclosing about their social and environmental impacts and practices. I'm curious. And of course, you don't have to cite specific figures. What's kind of the initial assessment of that index? And of course, we'll refer people to check it out directly. But where do you think that we are on the scale of completely opaque industry, as I see all describe it at Fashion Revolution to a completely transparent industry? Where are we

Orsola de Castro 15:35  

We're on the 60%, the top brands disclosing but again, let you know, I am not responsible for the fashion transparency index. That's very much a brilliant, brilliant policy team. And I'm actually going to thank them for all the work that they do, and our fantastic director Sarah ditty, who's actually leaving us, but it does a good moment to say goodbye publicly to all the work she's done. This is it. But you know, the reality is that we're nowhere near that. And the fashion transparency index, amply demonstrates demonstrates how little brands are disclosing. But really the fashion transparency index and, and supply chain visibility is a first step is so that we can keep them scrutinizing. Because don't forget, this is information that is been given at the end of the day by the brands themselves. So at the end of the day, transparency doesn't lead you to sustainability. It leads you to a place where you can discover for yourself whether it is or it isn't, you know whether practices are best practice are not best practice. But the reality is that it's crucial to make brands understand that these closed doors mentality leads to rife environmental and human abuse. And that radical and mandatory transparency absolutely is what we demand what we request, what can no longer be denied, at this day and age, after situations such as Rana Plaza, and yet again, recently with COVID, when we have so much visibility of exactly and precisely how a poorly brands behave with their workers. So transparency really is for us all to keep these brands accountable. And then eventually, to understand what a new set all the information we need to have when we go shopping. So if you are just as used to checking if a brand has your size, but also checking whether they published their code of conduct, you will develop better shopping habits.

Cory Ames  17:41  

I'm curious if you could expand on that a bit further, what should we expect? You mentioned their code of conduct, but what else perhaps should we expect? As consumers when when shopping like what what does complete transparency look like? So that we can know which which brands to perhaps support and advocate for and then which brands we need to push further?

Orsola de Castro 18:03  

Okay, so complete transparency is only really available in probably not is really, particularly the brands would look for online. And again, I wouldn't be I don't think this way around, it's going to work, I think what we need to do is to understand that overall, and, you know, in the way that we shop, we need to develop a new set of criteria. And this is not going to be the same for everyone, because we're not going to all want the same pair of jeans. We all have different tastes. So if I can give you an example, I've given this before, but it's the one that makes sense to me. So imagine you're buying a pair of trousers, you're looking for a size 42 So what are the numbers should matter to you? In choosing the right pair of trousers? I mean, for me, it should be to know that the people who make these trousers are paid a fair and living wage. So does that round provide me with this information? Or does an alternative app or for instance, fashion transparency and provide me with that information but it shouldn't be really embedded in the brand if you're looking for you know the color? Okay, is this the perfect blue? What does the Perfect Blue look like? And I'm not thinking you know, it's got a shade, you know, it's a bit electric or a little bit too dark or too pale. I'm talking about what chemicals are used to achieve that shade of blue and is the brand telling me this information. So, if we start to think that we have to buy for size, but by for principle and that we have to buy something that will look after for a long time that we will wash that we will wear then suddenly these other considerations should be as important as the size or the style of the color. So if you find the perfect size 42 But there is no information on pay or overtime or you know the code of conduct. You should take In the same way as if there wasn't a size 42 Change brand, if there is not enough information on the chemicals that are included on that jumper that you were looking for, which is the perfect blue? Well, that should if you know that there are you know that that looks, that's the wrong shade of blue.

Cory Ames  20:18  

Certainly it becomes this, this essential component that that we evaluate as we make those those purchasing decisions. And I'm wondering, what do you feel like is driving brands towards making more meaningful actions towards transparency? What do you see actually influencing this, this change that we'd like to see?

Orsola de Castro  20:41  

Well, again, I mean, you know, which brands are we talking about? Because some brands are simply motivated by being seen to be doing the right thing, while others have invested their whole lives and their whole everything into being that way. So, you know, it's hard to generalize. But I think that when it comes to the big brands, the realization is that, you know, for a long time, they've somehow made themselves look good with greenwash after pretty much self congratulating, you know, at every opportunity, talking about sustainability and ethics as a fantastic business opportunity, but not changing fast enough, anywhere near fast enough. So that fantastic business opportunity is now an urgent moral obligation. And I think they know that while when it comes with the smaller brands, I feel that the two areas where I'm finding some really interesting innovation, one is related to upcycling and reusing, which I'm seeing more and more in places such as India, you know, and in producing countries where waste has a different meaning than, you know, over here. And I also love the returning of the with the return to the land, I call it soil and soul. But there's so much looking at, you know, literally from from field to closet, you know, things such as, you know, the fiber shaft movement, and so on. So those are two areas that I see, are being really driving the Creative Conversation With, with emerging brands.

Cory Ames  22:17  

It does really seem that that there's a lot of exciting stuff happening at the small and midsize scale brands in this space, many of these folks that we've had the pleasure of featuring on the podcast here, but what are the points of resistance? Do you think between taking some of these these much larger brands, the ones that which y'all the profile, and track and analyze so closely because of how grave their their impacts are? What what do you think, are the needed changes and and movements that we have to advocate for and push for? To have these brands go from really accepting that moral obligation?

Orsola de Castro 23:01  

You know, for me, it really is radical transparency. I mean, you know, when it comes to, for instance, the luxury industry, I don't quite I'm not quite clear why they aren't making massive, massive investments into radical transparency. Because surely, luxury is synonymous with 100% traceability, I mean, what is an aristocrat without their lineage, and it should be the same for every luxury product. So definitely that radical transparency for all brands. And as I mentioned, and I keep on saying, paying your supply chain work as a dignified living wage, wherever they are, I mean, you know, this just goes without saying this, we shouldn't be even debating this ever anymore. I can't believe that we're not. But the other one is one of visibility. I mean, at this point in time, we have something like 40 or 50. I don't I as I said, I'm not a numbers, woman. But it's close to that actually having dominating pretty much 90% of the market. So we need to give the visibility to the smaller the brands that are replicable, rather than up scalable, the systems that go around the creation and the usage of clothing from renting to swapping to mending, mending, mending mending. I want every fast fashion store to have cheap, affordable repair stations for their customers in store. I mean, you know, you sell cheap clothes, you just got to well, cheaply mend them. I mean, you know, again, no question asked a comprehensive change of what our environments look like, and a concerted effort on behalf of the mainstream to actually give visibility and support and share profits. First of all with your supply chain, but secondly, with those brands that are squashed by the fact that these guys are dinosaurs. So you know, take responsibility for your size. Take responsibility for your monopoly, or your oligopoly In the case of several, that's not a good thing, you know, might be good for business, but it's not good for diversity. So you've got to take that and remove yourself from the equation in order to give space to those who need some of the customers that you've got too many of. I mean, the majority of these brands are run by, you know, multimillionaires that are accumulating wealth that they will never need. Let's think about those that do.

Cory Ames  25:30  

What do you feel like is is the role of consumer activism in pushing these brands to make significant change? You know, Fashion Revolution has been behind some really brilliant campaigns, who made my clothes campaign and recently the pay your workers campaign here during COVID? What role do you feel like this sort of consumer side of active activism has towards catalyzing meaningful change in fashion?

Orsola de Castro 25:57  

Well, I mean, as far as I am concerned, consumer activism should only really lead to one thing, and that's, you know, apart from all of the wonderful things that we can do together, but consumer activism, activism is for consumers, to remind brands, that it's their responsibility to make the change, because you know, brands for too long have been saying, Oh, but you know, consumers are demanding it show me when there was a political, you know, demonstration in the middle of the road demanding cheap clothes, I don't remember that, you know, we've been flooded, and we've been duped and we've been lied to. So fashion activism is really redressing where the power is where the responsibility is, and the fact that we're demanding better and the brands continuously refused to provide it is really, you know, the nutshell of activism. And obviously, raising awareness. Because this was done all very secretly, this was done invisibly exploitation of people and planet was not part and parcel of the narrative when this whole sorry, business started 30 years ago, 35 years ago, 20. But whenever you want to mark, its beginning in your consciousness. But I think if we'd been told the truth there, and then we would have reacted quite differently. So as consumer activists, what we need to do is keep being the biggest pain in the neck that you can possibly do to tell the brands that nothing less than change is what is the products that we want to buy?

Cory Ames  27:29  

In what ways do you see consumers being able to communicate that effectively? How do they actually make the communication between themselves and the brands?

Orsola de Castro  27:39  

Well, again, you know, everybody's different. And fashion is about individualism. I've said that before. But you know, each and every one of us will behave differently, some will boycott, some will only buy certain things, some will mend and repair, others will buy less. I think consumers are doing quite a lot, especially the engaged ones. And actually, with my book laughed at us, I really, really noticed it's the first time potentially in my career that I've gone out of my own echo chamber, I've been approached by people who were not familiar with the ills and evils of the fashion industry, but were very familiar with the practices that I was describing. And these people were not necessarily old ladies, from the middle of nowhere, that we're I've been contacted by plenty of very young people, you know, in Africa say, but this is exactly what I've been doing. And my family has been doing with my clothes, does this mean, we're doing really good, sustainable fashion? So it's not, you know, I've gone out of this, this conversation around common sense, a lot of people identify with having a very common sense approach to the way that they wear clothes, either because they are rationally inclined to think that way or because their economics doesn't afford them to do otherwise. So you know, I feel that it's, it is a conversation. And as I mentioned, around, you know, the Friday's for future and the younger generation that will will realize the the impact that it has. So, yeah.

Cory Ames  29:03  

And were you surprised with that sort of feedback from your book in any sort of way? Or is that something that that you sort of anticipated?

Orsola de Castro  29:13  

No, no, I was 100% Surprised that was you know, when you asked me why did book came out, why did this book came out in COVID. I actually finished writing it the week before Milan went into lockdown. And I was terrified when I saw you know, when I reworked on the final edits, which was since the beginning of May I thought oh my god, now everything will have changed and the book will be irrelevant, but it had the opposite effect. You know, when when I wrote the book, my publisher thought that it was going to be much more niche than what it turned out to be actually sold way more than I thought that it ever would because people were more ready you know, with this conversation and really impressed at the fact that it's very young people that that have read it and contact me and are very generous taking the time to write to me on Instagram and, and debating my book and I'm saying Where they've learned and how it's helped them. But it's farther out in terms of bubble than I've ever been.

Cory Ames  30:05  

I would say that it's a wonderful weaving in between both tactical implementations, you mentioned that the items of or the tactics of mending, as well as, like you said earlier, the why behind, you know why it is that that it might be important to do this and sort of transform and redefine our culture in relationship to our clothes. So I highly recommend folks check this out, especially myself coming into it as an outsider from fashion sort of looking in, of course, I do wear clothing and engage with fashion everyday, but not so deep in the industry myself. But also, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And I want to respect it before we wrap up here. Do you mind if I ask you a couple rapid fire questions? Of course. So who are some other individuals, organizations or brands in the space of fashion, sustainable fashion that you think really deserve a plug folks who are doing some excellent work, who you think should be recognized?

Orsola de Castro  31:06  

Well, just off the top of my head to slow factory Saleem Simon, the work of Agia Barber, the remake our world campaign, and the that you mentioned before with the poor workers? Well, I guess, where are you based? You're not UK? Are you a little bit all over? US? 

Cory Ames  31:20  

Boston, Massachusetts, US.

Orsola de Castro  31:23  

Okay. So now maybe then there's the one I was going to suggest is very UK focused the Maxine bay that I am now a completely lost for word for her organization. But it's brilliant. If you follow Maxine, you'll find that the New Standards Institute, I think, which is fantastic. I would also really suggest obviously, I've been looked at the from the state side. But if you follow the Fashion Revolution, local teams, we have several in the US in South America and all over the globe. That's a really good place to discover other organizations. In a way, it's because I have access to so many that I can't really remember them at the top of my head. But definitely the Fashion Revolution teams, which you can find on Instagram or on the website would also be a really good place there repositories for exactly this kind of information.

Cory Ames  32:14  

Perfect. And next question for you. What's one daily habit? Or maybe a morning routine that you absolutely have to stick to? If anything? Coffee, coffee? How do you take it?

Orsola de Castro  32:28  

I have my coffee duck with unpasteurized whole milk. And it's non negotiable.

Cory Ames  32:39  

I'm with you on that not exactly the same routine, but it is non negotiable for me to final one for you. Or so what what's maybe one bit of advice that you might leave our listeners with these folks are social entrepreneurs and changemakers, from all industries, all sectors all over the world. What's one parting bit of advice that you might meet them with?

Orsola de Castro  33:01  

Look for small support the small I was recently, at a very inspiring mentoring session with a group of designers from Nigeria, their commitment, their design, their flair, their creativity was incredible. They were part of Lagos Fashion Week. But it was clear from speaking to them, that they totally lacked the kind of infrastructure. And I think that intrapreneurs all over the world should look at cohorts of young designers should look at new fashion, what fashion could be like in the future. And think differently, think, as I said before, replication as opposed to upscale, and put your economic and your business acumen to the service of these young creatives that are so desperately needing precisely this kind of support.

Cory Ames  33:53  

Excellent advice for us to end on. Thank you so much in Lastly, or so where where do you recommend folks keep up with you specifically in Fashion Revolution, where's the best place to follow?

Orsola de Castro  34:04  

So for me would definitely be my book. But otherwise, from a day to day point of view, my Instagram feed, which is act or sort of the gas through my name, and Fashion Revolution really depends on where we are where you are. I mean, you know, our main handle is at fashion underscore ref. But depending on where you are, I mean, in the US we have several teams in South America, we have brilliant teams. And so you know, depending on where you are to find them and support them.

Cory Ames  34:33  

Perfect. We'll have all things Fashion Revolution, we'll have your book loved clothes last, and any other places that you mentioned, folks to keep up with you LinkedIn or showpo sacral ensemble.com. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Orsola de Castro  34:46  

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Cory Ames  34:49  

Okay, that is a wrap another episode of the social entrepreneurship and innovation podcast in the books. I hope you enjoyed it. As always your host Dr. Cory Ames. I always really enjoy knowing that you're you're out there listening to this episode engaging with the content, perhaps the folks that we featured doing this exceptional work in the world. If you enjoyed the show and you haven't already, please leave us a review wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And hit the subscribe button if you haven't already that really helps other folks like yourself, discover the show. And lastly, if you have not yet, sign up for the better world weekly newsletter this is our weekly discussion of building a better world with our global community of changemakers and innovators from all sectors and all walks of life. So go to grow ensembl.com backslash newsletter to get the next Better World weekly in your inbox. We will talk next time